Osama is dead...

[Jenna]

It's not a matter of a level of compassion. I feel no compassion for a mass murderer. At the same time, though, I don't feel it's necessary to celebrate his murder in the streets.... which makes us not much better than those that celebrated American deaths.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that it's a different situation and one murder is different than nearly 3,000 civilians. I vividly remember that day - but I cannot celebrate a death like it's a party. I hang my flag and remember that day and why this was so important, and I'm happy for those who finally get to feel a sense of closure from this.

[Wotcher]

[quote=Jenna]It's not a matter of a level of compassion. I feel no compassion for a mass murderer. At the same time, though, I don't feel it's necessary to celebrate his murder in the streets.... which makes us not much better than those that celebrated American deaths.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that it's a different situation and one murder is different than nearly 3,000 civilians. I vividly remember that day - but I cannot celebrate a death like it's a party. I hang my flag and remember that day and why this was so important, and I'm happy for those who finally get to feel a sense of closure from this.[/quote]


A+, well-said. this is what I was trying to articulate the whole time. I'm not sure why you don't believe compassion is involved, but that's probably another word choice game waiting to be played.

and here's a thought experiment: if you say you have zero compassion whatsoever, then does that mean that you would start tightening your hands if they were wrapped around Osama's neck? Or perhaps compassion isn't measurable in this way. Just throwing things out there.

and bigcfk and cokals, I think phase and I know what we're actually arguing about... although the same cannot be said of many other arguments i've been involved in

[PhaseDMA]

Wait. You don't think because I defend people that are happy he is dead that I would go out in the streets and celebrate right?

And yes. If given the chance to kill Bin Laden I would do it without hesitation.

[Jenna]

Thought this was a relevant read after the age issue was discussed: http://www.newsweek.com/2009/09/07/generation-9-11.html.

This, Columbine (1999), and the Oklahoma City Bombing (1995) all really stick out in my memories... despite my age at the time.

[Wotcher]

[quote=PhaseDMA]And yes. If given the chance to kill Bin Laden I would do it without hesitation.[/quote]

That is the difference between us. I do believe I know what thought process has led you to make a conclusion like that, but I have yet to understand why you (and many people) choose to follow this thought process... The rationalization that someone might use for killing Osama just doesn't hold up in my worldview.

Hence why, yes really, I was right when I said that, at this point, it's "you feel this way and i feel that way."

And, it turns out I read "Osama" as "Obama" in that one bit of text of yours that I couldn't understand. Oops. Embarrassing.

So anyway, you somehow started at "Osama is heartless" and wound up concluding that "Because Wotcher is arguing against heartlessly mistreating heartless people, then he must be IN SUPPORT of people who commit heartless acts like Osama!"

But that's simply a gap of logic. Just because I'm not happy about the death of evil-doers doesn't mean that I don't believe that evil-doer is doing evil!

There's a fine distinction here that I'm trying to expose. That distinction is between what is necessary in the eyes of the inhabitants of our world (getting rid of Osama), and what sorts of things warrant positive emotions. Osama's death WAS necessary, I don't think that Osama is "okay," as you implied, but I do not think it is the mark of a rational human being to feel happy about his death. I'm melancholy about two things: that Osama masterminded the attacks in the first place (i.e. the deaths of my fellow Americans), and that he subsequently (and necessarily) was marked for death by the entire world for his actions.

Now are we talking about the same thing?

[PhaseDMA]

Wothcher -
I'm just going to end this right here, but I want to add a few points. None of which you should feel the need to refute.

Obama, and Osama. Trust me. I have made the mistake quite a bit. I want to call Osama "Obama" all the time and vice versa. And it has NOTHING to do with my dislike for Obama, and I feel really bad about it every time. So I completely understand how you could have been confused by that sentence.

I DO NOT think you are a bad person, or that you support Osama because you feel people are being heartless. This emotion is completely acceptable, and I don't fault you for having it.

The bottom line is you feel one way and I feel another. I'm not going to change your mind, and that's fine. This probably got a bit more heated then it ever should have. Such is the reality of political discussions. I'm (we?) are just better are side stepping the arguments when talking to people face to face.

[Jenna]

(Last word.)

[ryn]

I see some points that need refuted.

[plasma2002]

[cokalsM]

I read somewhere that Osama instructed(?) whomever he was talking to to attack the US on significant dates (10th year anniversary of 9/11, 4th of July, etc), and to hit smaller cities such as LA because New York's security was pretty beefed up. He also mentioned hitting subways and stressed only carrying out attacks that had causalities in the thousands.

Interesting.