Osama is dead...

[Thermite Man]

Sooo, when can we refund SETI? When can we get to work on new space shuttles? When can we start getting back to a gold standard?

Oh wait, we will be at war for another 10 years.

[bigcfk]

I find this so convenient after the botched assassination yesterday/two days ago.

[cokalsM]

Although I don't think Osama was running the show anymore, I obviously think it was good that he was killed. I know, I know, celebrating someone's death doesn't make us any better than him...but it does.

However, I think his death also brought the country together, more than 9/11, or atleast in a better way. The coming together in 9/11 was different than the "Fuck Yeah, America is the shit" coming together of killing Osama. I think we need something like that every now and then. We should support our wars, president, etc even if we don't always agree with it. For example, I hear and see people who want Obama to fail, even at the mercy of the country, just because they don't like him. They get excited when they see the economy goes down or the unemployment number rises. Did you see the 45,000-50,000 people cheering "USA, USA, USA..." at the Phillies vs. Mets game when the news broke out. There were USA chants at the bars last night around campus the ENTIRE night. People seem to genuinely be Patriotic right now. We need that.

Everyone these days just wants to bitch about who's in power. I am definitely not an Obama fan but I can tell you, he got that one right, and he had the balls to order that attack especially when half his advisers were split between waiting for more intelligence and sending in Drones to bomb the place. I hear people complaining that Obama didn't pull the trigger so why is he getting the credit for it. We just killed Osama bin Laden and they're gonna complain that Obama is getting the credit. That's the stuff I'm talking about.

[bigcfk]

Who was following the search for Osama? How many of those 40k had even thought of Osama in the past week? month?
Sure, its good. No doubt, but I found the chants and "jubilation" to be a product of the mob mentality.
Is anybody truly ecstatic about this? Or do they just want to hoot and holler and hail America?
Call me a cynic, but I'd peg more than half of the celebrators as the former.

[cokalsM]

Was thinking about a terrorist who had disappeared for half a decade expected? I for sure didn't follow the search. Hell, I couldn't tell you the last thing I heard about the war in Iraq.

I think the people shouting at the baseball game were legitimately together in being proud to be an American. I can see half the people drunk at the bars maybe just shouting to go along with everyone else, but for the most part people seem excited. The few that just do it because everyone else is shouldn't take anything away from most of the people who actually care.

[bigcfk]

See, I'm stuck on those how many actually care. What difference does a single man's death make? Not too much. Yes, admittedly, justice was done. But everyday life is exactly the same. All of the security increases because of Osama's work will still stand, and will likely increase more because of probable retaliation. A lot of people probably haven't been affected by Osama's work's aftermath in the slightest, so what's the difference for them? Symbolism, outstanding justice, and an excuse to exude patriotism.

But I dont want to naysay the 'jubilation' anymore; my main concern is how convenient this is.

(sorry for being such a cynical asshole, by the way)

[cokalsM]

[quote=bigcfk]See, I'm stuck on those how many actually care. What difference does a single man's death make? Not too much. Yes, admittedly, justice was done. But everyday life is exactly the same. All of the security increases because of Osama's work will still stand, and will likely increase more because of probable retaliation. A lot of people probably haven't been affected by Osama's work's aftermath in the slightest, so what's the difference for them? Symbolism, outstanding justice, and an excuse to exude patriotism.

But I dont want to naysay the 'jubilation' anymore; my main concern is how convenient this is.

(sorry for being such a cynical asshole, by the way)[/quote]

I don't see you as being a cynical asshole. One could make the case that I'm just being naive.

I think we are discussing two different things here.

I don't actually think Osama's death really means anything. I said in my first post that I don't even think he was running the show anymore. However, it is something to rally around. My point was, that is what is important.

Shoot, I'll even take "fake" patriotism over what I've been used to seeing. In fact, the people who complained about Obama getting credit for the kill even supports the fact that some of it may be "fake".

Convenient? Definitely. His death came out of nowhere. I hadn't heard anything about Osama for years until a few days ago.

I'd rather see this conveinent, fake togetherness than the normal hating every war, president, etc.

[PhaseDMA]

Reality check. Obama didn't do shit. All he did was follow the lead that Bush set, and listened to his advisors. And the fact is if Obama needed to gather the "guts" to call the attack he has no place being the President.

Being explicit - Bush didn't promote this guy to CIA Director, but Bush did put him in the fast track to that position. Beyond that many people are starting to say the major clues were found by the Bush administration, and were passed down to the next administration - Not because they were slow, but because as both administration's showed this takes a long time to pan out.


As far as following his capture? Well I'm pretty sure there was nothing to be followed, but I did have a dream Friday night that he was captured. Sadly I was a bit off in the total deaths - My dream only had Osama and 3 others killed... True story!

Now it's time to forget about Osama. There is no reason to ever bring up his name again other then when talking about history, and even then his name should only be brought up with explicit facts. To do other side is to add to a legacy that doesn't exist, and isn't deserved.

As far as celebrating his death? That's perfectly acceptable. The man is a mass murder. Just like when a serial killer is put to death and everyone in the family of the victim celebrates. Well you knknow what? Every citizen in this country is a member of the family were called the United States of America.

Beyond that - It losses the shit out of the enemy when they realize their biggest attack ended up not only being their biggest set back, but also ultimately cost them the life of the entire top tier of the Taliban. I mean the next leader of the Taliban is expected to be a American for crying out loud! All Americans are the enemy? Well now your leader is going to be a American!! How ironic!

[Wotcher]

[quote=PhaseDMA]As far as celebrating his death? That's perfectly acceptable. The man is a mass murder. Just like when a serial killer is put to death and everyone in the family of the victim celebrates. Well you knknow what? Every citizen in this country is a member of the family were called the United States of America. [/quote]

this is the mentality of the majority of our world right now. it is a self-perpetuating mentality: "I deserve to hate the other side because the other side harmed me."

maybe your use of the word "acceptable" is what I'm questioning. Perhaps you meant to use a word more like "understandable." It makes sense to take pride in your country; to go further, it thus makes sense to celebrate the death of a man who caused your country harm.

however, where do we get off of this train? the people who are on Osama's "side" (al-Qaeda) hate America for a reason. celebrating Osama's death only gives them more of a reason to hate us!

It was necessary to capture/assassinate Osama. For our pride, for our cause, for "justice." He attacked our land; if we didn't react to such an attack, it would make us look weak.

Now that we have accomplished our goal of getting rid of Osama, we have an obligation as rational adults to adopt the appropriate emotional reaction. I do NOT think that a positive emotion is an appropriate one.

We ought to be grim at this juncture. Grim because we are reminiscing about the terrible attacks led by a man who is now himself a victim. We should also be taking actions necessary to prevent ourselves from ever needing to kill a future Osama.

We should look forward to a solution that doesn't involve contests of who can be the most ruthless, who can be the most heartless, who can get the last bit of revenge before the bell tolls. We should be trying our hardest to appeal to the people of the East who "hate" the United States. We should be publicly doing things that are so selfless and so compassionate that these hate-filled people will be doubling over in nausea from their cognitive dissonance.

"Joyfully celebrating the killing of a killer who joyfully celebrated killing carries an irony that I hope will not be lost on us. Are we learning anything, or simply spinning harder in the cycle of violence?" -Brian McLaren

[PhaseDMA]

Contests of who can be the most ruthless?

Ruthless would be to fire a precision missile at the compound and kill the 20-30 (mostly innocent) people there. What we did wasn't ruthless. What we did was explicitly designed to harm the least number of people possible. This was a Navy SEAL operation. If you know anything about Navy SEALs you would know that the only people they fire at are people that are a direct threat. Beyond that there are few (if any) people/groups better trained to ascertain the current threat level from second to second.